Looking to purchase a new carbon coater.

[Dave C]

Hello folks

We are currently having trouble with our Edwards Auto 306 and need to move forward with purchasing a new coater.

The Auto306 is an excellent coater and has served us well over the past 20 years and we would procure a new one but this instrument is now made by a different vendor in India and doesn't have the local service that we have enjoyed in the past.

So we are looking for something with similar capabilities.  We only ever used the 306 for carbon deposition so the ability to coat with various metals probably isn't going to be an issue.  What we really like about the auto306 is that we can get reproducible coating using the push rod method (based on colour on polished brass) by maintaining consistent length on the machined component of the carbon rod, consistent vacuum set-point and applied current during evaporation.

I am looking for feedback and/or recommendations for carbon coaters.

Any input would be greatly appreciated

Thanks

Dave

[jon_wade]

I have the HHV variant of the 306 (9 years old now, used daily, sometimes by the ham-fisted)

I can say I am very happy with it - its all branded parts (Edwards turbo pump and rotary, mitsubishi display and Eurotherm power controller). It hasn't required any maintenance beyond a single change of the rotary oil.  Frankly, its been one of my better purchases!

all the best

Jon

[Karsten Goemann]

I agree with Jon - we've had our HHV Auto306 for 4.5 years now and it has been excellent.

[Nicholas Ritchie]

Karsten & Jon,
    How are your HHV Auto 306s configured?  Do you use them for C only or other elements too?

[Probeman]

Karsten & Jon,
    How are your HHV Auto 306s configured?  Do you use them for C only or other elements too?

Our Edwards 306 coater is ancient (bought used 15 years ago) but it is generally reliable.  We did have to machine new electrode parts out of stainless steel as the original aluminum parts wore out. We also had to replace the electrode wires with new cables, oh and we did have to replace the variac transformer with a replacement one from Edwards.

I mentioned this observation to the service guy on the phone from the UK that I thought it was cool that the power dial "it goes to 11", but he said unfortunately the Edwards 306 coater design predates Spinal Tap:

https://www.reddit.com/r/videos/comments/oc92ku/its_one_louder_my_amplifier_goes_to_11_spinal_tap/

He said he thought that the "it goes to 11" came from old railroad engines...  well, at least it's repairable if not completely reliable!

Some other posts on carbon coaters:

https://probesoftware.com/smf/index.php?topic=623.msg9166#msg9166

https://probesoftware.com/smf/index.php?topic=423.msg2288#msg2288

https://probesoftware.com/smf/index.php?topic=878.msg5590#msg5590

[Jacob]

well, at least it's repairable if not completely reliable!

I'd agree with this. We have the Edwards Auto 306 turbo model here. The PLC inside recently died but there was enough information in the manual to program a new one with a custom program from scratch.  At this point I can't see ever getting rid of the system, even with a major component failure as pieces could potentially be mixed and matched from other manufacturers with some PLC program modifications.

[sem-geologist]

I mentioned this observation to the service guy on the phone from the UK that I thought it was cool that the power dial "it goes to 11", but he said unfortunately the Edwards 306 coater design predates Spinal Tap:

https://www.reddit.com/r/videos/comments/oc92ku/its_one_louder_my_amplifier_goes_to_11_spinal_tap/

He said he thought that the "it goes to 11" came from old railroad engines...  well, at least it's repairable if not completely reliable!

well, 11 as max used on Marshal Guitar amplifiers (which were featured in Spinal Tap) predates quite much the Spinal Tap.

[Probeman]

I mentioned this observation to the service guy on the phone from the UK that I thought it was cool that the power dial "it goes to 11", but he said unfortunately the Edwards 306 coater design predates Spinal Tap:

https://www.reddit.com/r/videos/comments/oc92ku/its_one_louder_my_amplifier_goes_to_11_spinal_tap/

He said he thought that the "it goes to 11" came from old railroad engines...  well, at least it's repairable if not completely reliable!

well, 11 as max used on Marshal Guitar amplifiers (which were featured in Spinal Tap) predates quite much the Spinal Tap.

Not according to Wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Up_to_eleven

The only music related knob that went to "11" prior to Spinal Tap was a guitar volume knob on the guitar itself, designed by Les Paul.  The Marshall amp that "goes to 11" came later in 1990 after the movie.

But you can buy them on Amazon:

https://www.amazon.com/Allparts-PK-0142-023-Bell-Knobs-Black/dp/B014I5MR8U

[Karsten Goemann]

Hi Nicholas,

We've modified our HHV Auto306 quite a bit. We only coat carbon with it and have separate coaters for metal sputter coating. The vacuum system is turbo and scroll pump.

We made "half-pipe" sample holders for different sample formats so all samples have the same distance to the carbon source. They go upside down onto the three posts supplied with it so we're coating "upwards" from the carbon source.
We modified the carbon rod source it came with so it accepts a single 1.5 mm diameter carbon rod which is clamped at both ends (i.e. not two thicker rods that are sharpened in some way and touch in the middle).
In addition to the quartz thickness monitor it came with we added a resistance-based measurement device to better measure thickness buildup during coating and automatically terminate the coating once a certain conductivity is reached.
Those sorts of modifications are similar to what we already had on our 1970s vintage Ladd bell jar coater, see also this thread here:
https://probesoftware.com/smf/index.php?topic=1252

Cheers,
Karsten

[Dave C]

Been gone for a while .. but many thanks for the input.

From what I can gather there aren't too many coaters that surpass or are as good as the Auto306?  The issue with our Auto306 is that the PLC is toast ... at least that is what we suspect.  We will be replacing the PLC but we have a procurement strategy to replace supporting instrumentation particularly after it hits the 15 year mark which is where we are at with the Edwards 306.  I just can't believe how expensive these things are now.

Anyway, sounds as though there are no concerns with the quality of the HHV which is good to hear.  We have always had good service and parts access through Edwards but they don't support this anymore so will have to figure that out moving forward.

As far as going to 11  ... good laugh on that.   I'm a Marshall tube amp junkie and have built a few DIY replicas so that resonates with me!

[jtmitchell]

Hiya,

I'm having endless issues with the Leica ACE600 coater in my lab. It's been delivering uneven coatings, chewing through thread like nobody's business, and also eating it's way through power supplies (it's also really loud and really slow). For context, I've been in this job for coming to 6 months and this coater has been down for quite literally 50% of that time. Myself and a couple of other people I work with here who have Leica products are also really struggling with their customer service and response times. When I started this job, the coater had been broken for half a month and reported to them, and it took them two months for someone to come out. This time around, I've had incorrect parts sent to the incorrect building and still no idea when they'll be back to fix it. It's really hampering the functionality of my lab as I'm now entirely reliant on coating capabilities elsewhere in the university (which is then of course reliant on the relevant technical staff being available).

In my previous job, I really like the Quorum Q150T Plus but I'm interested to see what other labs are using and the general opinions/reviews of the different options available.  Some money is available for me to buy a replacement but I want to make sure I buy an improvement, not another problem.

Thanks!
-Jen

[sem-geologist]

Hiya,

I'm having endless issues with the Leica ACE600 coater in my lab. It's been delivering uneven coatings, chewing through thread like nobody's business, and also eating it's way through power supplies (it's also really loud and really slow). For context, I've been in this job for coming to 6 months and this coater has been down for quite literally 50% of that time. Myself and a couple of other people I work with here who have Leica products are also really struggling with their customer service and response times. When I started this job, the coater had been broken for half a month and reported to them, and it took them two months for someone to come out. This time around, I've had incorrect parts sent to the incorrect building and still no idea when they'll be back to fix it. It's really hampering the functionality of my lab as I'm now entirely reliant on coating capabilities elsewhere in the university (which is then of course reliant on the relevant technical staff being available).

In my previous job, I really like the Quorum Q150T Plus but I'm interested to see what other labs are using and the general opinions/reviews of the different options available.  Some money is available for me to buy a replacement but I want to make sure I buy an improvement, not another problem.

Thanks!
-Jen

We have Leica EM ACE200, and compared with Quorum it is much better. As for uneven coating, it is important to coat only a single sample placed at middle of stage. Don't bring sample too close to the thread, lowering sample will make it more even.

Indeed this Leica made in Germany (with Chinese components inside) tends to malfunction, and some fixing unfortunately needs service engineers as fact of braking down is "taken note" in the software and to restore functionality it requires servicing password. I.e. if Power supply goes bad. Two weeks ago one of valves broke, I had managed to diagnose it and replace in few days for less than 40$ (probably service visit would had costed additional zeroes).

Anecdotal: Last time service had replaced the PSU, one screw was missing in the case. This time when replacing valve on my own, no screws are missing! A miracle? The green vacuum bar in GUI by default is set to go green to fast. Waiting for a bit better vacuum will reduce thread consumption. As for loudness: does ACE600 have some turbo pump in-built? If turbo is loud - that means it is failing and should be not used. Else the source of loudest sound probably is rotary pump. Replacing it with more silent model would improve situation from that perspective (check the datasheets of pumps, these normally have noise rating in dB).