Bruker vs Thermo SDD

[D.]

I noticed that a certain lab has a Bruker SDD on one instrument and a Thermo SDD on another . I'm window shopping for an EDS and was wondering how these two compare in their performance, software functionality+ease of use, and just general opinions. Also, what was the ballpark price difference?

[D.]

OK, let me rephrase the question: Which of the Bruker vs Thermo SDDs integrates better with Probe Software? Anyone have any experiences they'd like to share?

[Probeman]

I noticed that a certain lab has a Bruker SDD on one instrument and a Thermo SDD on another . I'm window shopping for an EDS and was wondering how these two compare in their performance, software functionality+ease of use, and just general opinions. Also, what was the ballpark price difference?

My lab has a Bruker SDD on my SX50 and a Thermo SDD on my SX100...   but they are at least 5 years old or so. 

That said, I don't think you can go wrong with either.  They are both excellent detectors and compared to the days of yore when we were limited to 5 nA of beam current on Si(Li) detectors, this is paradise.   

The main hardware difference between the two products that concerns EPMA instruments is that Bruker can input WDS ROIs and output EDS ROIs, while Thermo can only input WDS ROIs (for x-ray mapping purposes). Unfortunately neither vendor can quantify the WDS map intensities using this method. However, this will soon become a moot point as both vendors are implementing my suggestions for synchronized EDS-WDS EPMA x-ray mapping methods as described here:

http://probesoftware.com/smf/index.php?topic=400.msg3702#msg3702

Thermo is already working on this synchronized mapping method and I expect Bruker will follow suit soon.

As for pricing you'll have to see what you are quoted.  With the dollar so strong these days I would expect that Thermo would get you the best deal easily, but it depends obviously.

As for software, I tend to prefer the NSS interface.  The Bruker GUI is very sexy but I prefer simplicity.  For example, in Thermo NSS one only has to type in the sample "base name" in one place and it gets utilized for all subsequent operations.  With Esprit one has to remember to drill down in multiple dialogs to edit the sample name or you end up with the previous sample name.  Dale Newbury, Ed Vicenzi and I wrote a letter to Bruker a few years ago with a list of software requests and I think they have implemented some, though not all of our suggestions.

Also the report generation in NSS seems to be a little easier (no need for creating a report template), and NSS outputs directly to PowerPoint where it is easy to edit.  Please note that both softwares are constantly changing and so my take on these issues may be out of date...

As for integration with Probe for EPMA both apps are very nicely integrated and will acquire a full EDS spectrum with each WDS analysis and furthermore, EDS elements can be added subsequently and included in the WDS quantification using full standard k-ratios, drift corrections and interference corrections. See here for more details:

http://probesoftware.com/smf/index.php?topic=79.msg286#msg286

On a related note, one can also acquire a full CL spectrum (along with the EDS spectrum) with each WDS analysis as described here:

http://probesoftware.com/smf/index.php?topic=42.msg3855#msg3855

However, this requires an Ocean Optics spectrometer already connected to the instrument as described. If you are interested in this feature please contact Probe Software for details.

[D.]

Thank you for the prompt and detailed reply, John.

The Bruker XFlash series looks great on paper, and I would instinctively lean towards that to start with. However, I don't like when companies make you purchase separate licenses for offline computers! I really hate it. I don't think something like the powerpoint output will sway me either way, but I'm used to working with Thermo's software, so sticking with them won't be a pain. Also, having looked at the discussions you linked in combined WDS-EDS aquisition threads , it seems like Thermo is a little more on the ball with implementing the new developments.

Are these implementations all hardware-related, or can it be solved post-aquisition with software updates? (I'm thinking JEOL 8230)

P.S. In your original reply above, I think you want to change "can't" to "can", in the second paragraph first sentence!    . Unless I missed the sarcastic humor...

Thanks,
Deon.

[Probeman]

The Bruker XFlash series looks great on paper, and I would instinctively lean towards that to start with. However, I don't like when companies make you purchase separate licenses for offline computers! I really hate it. I don't think something like the powerpoint output will sway me either way, but I'm used to working with Thermo's software, so sticking with them won't be a pain. Also, having looked at the discussions you linked in combined WDS-EDS aquisition threads , it seems like Thermo is a little more on the ball with implementing the new developments.

Hi Deon,
I also like companies that offer their software for free for off-line reprocessing.  Thermo and Probe Software are a good fit for that reason.  I mean for EDS companies the detector is the "dongle", so what is the issue!

Are these implementations all hardware-related, or can it be solved post-aquisition with software updates? (I'm thinking JEOL 8230)

You're thinking of the synchronized EDS SI and WDS mapping?  If so, yes, there will be some small amount of hardware to handle the conversion of the instrument pixel, line and frame sync pulses, but the standard Thermo and Bruker boxes already have inputs for external triggering.   It's not a product yet so can't say much, but I suspect the additional cost over a "standard" EDS system will not be prohibitive.

On the Cameca instrument the sync pulses are already built in and Cameca has graciously provided that info.  For JEOL it's more complicated. I know the 8200/8500 requires a separate board to obtain these sync signals and JEOL has agreed to provide that board on request.  They say they cannot provide this hardware signal for the 8900 (too old).

On the new 8230/8530 instruments I'm not sure if the pinouts are built-in or will also require a separate board.

JEOL has said to us that they only want to provide this sync output information on the new 8x30 instruments for use with their own EDS systems, so you're going to have to twist some arms...    We've already asked for the sync pinouts for Thermo/Bruker, and they've expressed interest in working with us on the API, but they may need some customer "encouragement" for the sync hardware pinouts for those planning to interface their 8x30 instruments with the Thermo and Bruker EDS systems.

Thanks for catching the typo-  I'm not that sarcastic!

[D.]

Great to know, thanks!

P.S. It would be funny to apply some reverse psychology on JEOL by not allowing their hardware to interface to the new software feature. Between all the ticked off Thermo/Bruker users who can't interface their 8x30 and future models to the synced EDS-WDS mapping capability, Cameca might spike on sales  ...I can't see that future JEOL clients will want to be pidgeon-holed into using a JEOL EDS.

[Mike Matthews]

Hi John,

I'm about to install a Thermo SDD on my JEOL 8200. Is installing the Thermo software on my PfE PC an option? If so, are there benefits for integration with PfE or PI?

Mike

[Probeman]

Hi John,

I'm about to install a Thermo SDD on my JEOL 8200. Is installing the Thermo software on my PfE PC an option? If so, are there benefits for integration with PfE or PI?

Mike

Hi Mike,
Absolutely.  You can install Thermo NSS on the same computer as PFE or a separate computer for integrated EDS and WDS acquisition.

There is a board here discussing integrated WDS and EDS acquisition in PFE:

http://probesoftware.com/smf/index.php?topic=79.0

Basically one can acquire a full EDS spectrum for each point acquisition for documentation or subsequent quantification with WDS elements. In PFE one always gets the EDS spectrum on both your standards and your unknowns (and wavescans!). Therefore the EDS quant is using full standards and drift corrections (and even interference corrections).

It's nice that Thermo allows for unlimited copies of NSS on computers for off-line reprocessing just like PFE.

For Probe Image we are currently working with Thermo, Bruker and JEOL to synchronize the stage or beam x-ray mapping with EDS spectrum image acquisition. That is, we will have (soon) a full EDS spectra for each WDS map pixel. And one will be able to fully quantify WDS and EDS elements for each pixel. See this board:

http://probesoftware.com/smf/index.php?topic=79.0

[Mike Matthews]

Thanks John, really looking forward to playing with all the options this gives me!