Author Topic: Questions about MAN background use  (Read 62675 times)

Julien

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Re: Questions about MAN background use
« Reply #90 on: January 31, 2019, 06:42:00 AM »
Thanks John,

I agree with Ben and it might be possible if you would enable the background fields two-point, MAN, MPB... in the Elements/Cations window. Then you could ask your software to check which option is being selected in the Elements/Cations window, and if MAN is selected (and if a MAN correction is available), then it uses the MAN for the background and if the two-point option is selected, then it would use the two-points. This solution could be further extended (with certainly more work...) for the MPB and more specifically shared background. Right now, you have an option to enable or remove the shared background, but if you do have a shared background, and if the MPB option in Elements/Cations is set to MPB, then it uses the shared background. Otherwise it would use the classical two-point background or the MAN background. Of course, if you do so, the software should be able also to determine if (a) MAN background is available, and (b) if a set of MPB or shared background is available.

This solution might also add some more clarity: the user can simply check in the Elements/Cations to see what background correction is being used for that specific element, whereas the current solution (your answer to my question) is done by clicking an option in a menu.

Julien

JakubHaifler

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Re: Questions about MAN background use
« Reply #91 on: June 07, 2019, 01:40:40 AM »
Hi,
I have been trying to use some advanced measurement (or rather processing) techniques, i.e. multi-point background fitting, interference corrections and (now) mean atomic number background calculation WITHOUT Probe for EPMA (Punk’s not dead!). Although it is quite demanding, I have been quite successful in some example tasks (in all these approaches) having only measured intensities, CalcZAF and MATLAB.

Measurement of Pb in my complex material (REE-, actinide-, Zr-, Ti-, Nb-rich minerals) seems to be very complicated. Recently, I have been trying MAN method. So, here I share my experience with fitting the Z vs background curve without PfE, but I also have a question.

I carefully selected some standards for background measurement at PbMb position (c. 58010 on LPET of our Cameca SX100). The intensities were measured at 15kV, 180 nA for 240-300 s.   

The approach of how to calculate the continuum absorption is mentioned in Ware and Reed (1973), which is referred in Donovan et al. (2016). However, for better understanding, I recommend a book “Scanning Electron Microscopy and X-ray Microanalysis” by Goldstein and co-workers and its electronic supplement, where the method of Philibert, Duncumb and Heinrich is explained in detail. At first, I tried to calculate their example on NiKa absorption in Ni-Fe alloy in Excel, then I got the same results in CalcZAF. Continuum absorption is calculated similar to the absorption of a characteristic line with the exception of zero concentration of the emitter in the former case. The values of f(chi), which is the fraction of the generated x-rays, which were not absorbed, can be simply and quickly calculated in CalcZAF. First of all I selected Philibert/Duncumb-Reed matrix correction and MAC table (Ware and Reed refer to Heinrich, 1966; however MAC’s for PbMb are not published in this set – see below). Then, I loaded a standard from our dataset, e.g. GdPO4. Subsequently, I added PbMb line to the calculation with Pb concentration set to zero. After the calculation, the value of f(chi) for PbMb can be found in results. This approach seems to work well.



Here is my average Z vs corrected background intensity diagram:



Somewhat enigmatic for me are the deviations of the two Zr-bearing standards, ZrO2 and pure Zr. I have studied a WDS scan of a wide region around PbMb performed on a pure Zr, but there should be absolutely no noticeable zirconium (or some contaminant) peak at that position – according to the scan as well as according to the x-ray spectral database. Any idea for this behaviour?



According to calculated absorption corrections, Zr is a somewhat stronger absorber (f(chi)=0.55) than most other standards, at least those with similar Z. Surprisingly, the raw background intensities before the correction seem to be much closer to the general trend of the most other standards (except for TiO, which shows much higher f(chi)=0.85 = much weaker absorber that the others, which usually have c. 0.6-0.7 or lower).



One observation I find interesting or surprising: I tried to explain the deviation of the Zr-bearing standards in my diagram. So, I decided to compare the values of all the MAC’s of PbMb in Zr (originally, I selected Heinrich, 1966) among various datasets. Then, I found out, that there are no values for absorption of PbMb in the dataset of Heinrich, 1966 and CalcZAF automatically took MAC’s from a different dataset (McMaster, I think). The MAC's for PbMb in Zr from different datasets, however, are relatively similar, so the backgrounds of Zr-bearing still deviate. 

One more question, on PfE – is the continuum absorption correction done using the approach by Philibert (1963) as referred in Ware and Reed (1973) in all cases or can it be switched to a different approach?

Best regards, Jakub Haifler   
« Last Edit: June 07, 2019, 08:50:19 AM by John Donovan »
Department of Geological Sciences
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Probeman

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Re: Questions about MAN background use
« Reply #92 on: June 07, 2019, 03:11:18 PM »
Hi Jakub,
Wow.  Very impressive work.  I must say, I think you would really have a blast with PFE on your instrument, maybe someday?

As to why the Zr containing materials are behaving like this, there are a lot of parameters involved here so it will be interesting to figure this out.  As you point out, the mass absorption coefficient values being the most dominant for this correction. I will have to try some MAN measurements myself, using the Pb Mb emission line, and see what I can see, but in the meantime I will try to answer a few of your questions as much as possible.

But first I ran a *simulation* of these MAN curves in Probe for EPMA (in demo mode) and got this MAN curve for your standard calibration materials:



Turning off the continuum absorption correction I got this:



Note that stds 40 (Zr oxide) and 540 (Zr metal) both drop below the curve without the absorption correction, so that is consistent with your measurements.  The default MAC table in Probe for EPMA (and CalcZAF) is Henke (for emission lines less than 10 keV). Looking in CalcZAF we can see the MACs for this emission line in Zr:

MAC value for Pb Mb in Zr =    2580.40  (LINEMU   Henke (LBL, 1985) < 10KeV / CITZMU > 10KeV)
MAC value for Pb Mb in Zr =        .00  (CITZMU   Heinrich (1966) and Henke and Ebisu (1974))
MAC value for Pb Mb in Zr =    2750.53  (MCMASTER McMaster (LLL, 1969) (modified by Rivers))
MAC value for Pb Mb in Zr =    2620.36  (MAC30    Heinrich (Fit to Goldstein tables, 1987))
MAC value for Pb Mb in Zr =        .00  (MACJTA   Armstrong (FRAME equations, 1992))
MAC value for Pb Mb in Zr =    2528.02  (FFAST    Chantler (NIST v 2.1, 2005))
MAC value for Pb Mb in Zr =    2620.00  (USERMAC  User Defined MAC Table)

The Henke MAC is quite a bit smaller than the MAC30 table value which you used. So this might cause the over correction you are seeing for the Zr containing materials.

As to what continuum absorption correction is being utilized in Probe for EPMA for the MAN curve fit, it is whatever absorption correction is currently selected in the ZAF/Phi-Rho-Z method.  Originally we tried several absorption corrections specifically intended for continuum emissions, but we got worse results than just using the absorption corrections from the currently selected matrix correction.  So now the MAN method in PFE just uses the absorption correction from whatever matrix correction has been selected.

By the way, you might want to contact Julien Allaz, Mike Jercinovic and Karsten Goemann as both have worked on using the MAN method with complex high Z materials. All three will be at the QMA 2019 conference in Minnesota later this month and all will be giving presentations on various background correction methods including MAN, off-peak and MPB (multi-point backgrounds) and Karsten will present the MPB method with "shared" backgrounds (that is utilizing normal off-peak measurements from other emitters measured on the same spectrometer).

Also see these topics:

https://probesoftware.com/smf/index.php?topic=4.msg17#msg17

https://probesoftware.com/smf/index.php?topic=9.msg7764#msg7764

Or maybe your materials are slightly contaminated in Pb? I can assure you that some of the Smithsonian REE standard are contaminated with Pb!  Note how my MAN curves excluded these materials automatically because it knows from the standard composition database that these materials contain Pb!
john
« Last Edit: June 08, 2019, 08:57:15 AM by Probeman »
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JakubHaifler

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Re: Questions about MAN background use
« Reply #93 on: June 12, 2019, 03:40:24 AM »
Hi John,

thank you very much for your answer. As you wrote, PfE would be a great help, particularly for such complicated measurements I am doing at the moment. On the other hand, these are extraordinary and are only for my research, I do not perform such calculations for routine measurements. So, the increased effort is acceptable in this case. Unfortunately, I am not powerful enough to affect what software and hardware equipment we have in our laboratory. But as you wrote – maybe sometime. I hope, my little DIY is not going to break your business with PfE  :), but may allow some people, particularly students, to try how the method works.

As for my data: I did some additional measurements. Something is clearer now, something not. I did two 5-point background measurements on Zr (btw, we have two pure Zr standards – intensities in both somewhat differ, but neither is compatible with my MAN curve). I observe that intensities at PbMb position are c. 7% higher than what I would expect from the exponential fit through the other four points. So, some contamination seems to be highly probable (may be Pb, Mo, Bi, Nb... at this position). On the contrary, the theoretical background at PbMb calculated from the fit remains incompatible with the MAN curve.



So, after additional measurements, following 12 standards are compatible within a single fit: YAG, Fe2O3, YPO4, LaPO4, GdPO4, GdAlO3, MnTaO4, CrTa2O6, CaWO4, Hf, Ta, W. I excluded TiO and Ti, as TiKb(II) shows overlap with PbMb. Similar to Zr, Sn also have PbMb-intensity higher than a fit through 4 other points nearby, so the contamination may also occur. Pure elemental standards Cr, Fe are not compatible with the MAN curve (they give higher PbMb-intensities), but I do not have additional data for resolving the reason.



Very mysterious for me is the behaviour of cheralite, CaTh(PO4)2, intensity of which shows very deep “negative” anomaly. It has avg. Z of 51.158, but PbMb-intensity of only 1.24 cps/nA (based on 3 measurements). CaWO4 and MnTaO4 with very similar avg. Z give c. 1.53-1.54, which is the theoretical, MAN-curve-compatible, background value at that Z.

I read some older comments on the MAN method (from about 2013). According to them, the method works well for low-avg Z matrices, while not so well for high-avg Z, which is not a very good message for me. However, I have not found much information on that. I think, my MAN curve looks relatively nice (of course, I have not explained incompatibility of Fe, Cr and particularly cheralite yet). Moreover, the used standards are relatively simple compounds (pure elements, binary or ternary compounds). So, I guess, the complex natural material is going to be much more tricky.
I am somewhat confused of a more general question of whether there are some serious limits and irregularities in this method. Or what should be the main pitfall for the high-Z matrices?
One example: from the many posts in this thread we can see that the MAN curve is usually fitted by a linear/exponential/2nd order polynomial, fluently increasing, function. This seems to be a rule: the higher Z, the higher the (corrected) background intensities. But for example in this post, John's data show a concave curve (which John explains there). 
https://probesoftware.com/smf/index.php?topic=4.msg1070#msg1070   

Best regards, Jakub     
« Last Edit: June 12, 2019, 08:12:59 AM by JakubHaifler »
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Re: Questions about MAN background use
« Reply #94 on: June 12, 2019, 11:16:58 AM »
Hi Jakub,
Please understand that there is nothing extraordinary about using the MAN background correction.  My guess is that, at least for geologists who utilize the software, the MAN correction is used almost all the time, at least for the major and minor elements (note that one can utilize a mix of MAN and off-peak elements for any given sample setup). The reason for it being utilized so often, is that the MAN correction saves so much time time (and improves precision) on major, and even minor elements, where very small accuracy errors in the MAN calibration curve, are generally smaller than the precision of the peak intensity measurement. 

For typical geological samples with K emission lines and low to moderate average Z materials, this is usually the case.  In my experience with typical silicates and oxides, the MAN background correction is accurate down to 200-300 PPM, even without a blank correction.  The use of the MAN correction with higher Z matrices and high Z emission lines is still an area of active investigation.   But maybe a little "MAN" history would be appropriate here...

The very first rationale for the MAN considerably preceded my own initiation to EPMA, and was invented to deal with EPMA instruments which utilized fixed monochromaters for commonly measured elements. For example, on my first EPMA instrument, which I inherited at UC Berkeley in the 1980s, it had 4 fixed monochromaters (for Si, Fe, Ca and Al), and 4 tunable spectrometers for another 4 elements. The reason of course being that fixed monochromaters *cannot* be de-tuned for the off-peak measurement!  So people came up with the idea of utilizing a calibration curve of standards which did not contain the elements of interest, for the background correction for these "fixed" spectrometers. Which meant of course that using the MAN correction, we could measure 8 elements in 10 seconds!  This was very useful as you might imagine for beam sensitive materials.

Since then the MAN background correction has been significantly improved and as my Amer. Min. 2016 paper showed, the MAN background correction can even be utilized for improving sensitivity for trace elements.  Basically this results in a 40% or more improvement in detection limits, in 1/2 the acquisition time, because only the on-peak intensity is measured.  And of course, of interest to you, one automatically avoids off-peak interferences, because there are no off-peak measurements when using the MAN correction!  In addition, interpolation issues with non-linear backgrounds and/or absorption edges simply disappear with the MAN method because, again, only the on-peak position is utilized.

But even though the MAN method can result in better accuracy than off-peak methods when such off-peak issues are present, the main caveat for the MAN method remains accuracy (at least at trace levels), because we are not performing a direct measurement of the continuum on the sample.  Therefore for ultimate accuracy, the MAN method is commonly combined with the so-called "blank" correction. The blank correction works well for relatively simple matrices where suitable (usually synthetic) blank samples can be obtained, e.g., quartz, zircon, pyrite, TiO2, Fe2O3, Fe3O4, etc.  Of course for complex materials, zero blanks may be difficult to obtain. But it is also of interest to note that the blank correction as implemented in Probe for EPMA, can be applied to non-zero blank samples, so there is that option.

Now having said all that, the remaining practical difficulties of the MAN method is obtaining pure standards that do not contain the element of interest.  As you pointed out in the linked post, many standards have not been properly characterized for trace elements. For example, I have two synthetic zircons, one appears to have a couple hundred PPM more phosphorus than the other. I have heard from many colleagues that utill they started utilizing the MAN method, they had not realized how contaminated some of their standard materials were.  On the other hand, the MAN method can teach us quite a lot that we didn't already know about our standards!

Just as a small aside, Ben Hanson at Dow Corning came up with a really crazy idea for the MAN method, which is to utilize the *off-peak* interpolated intensities for the MAN calibration curve, or "offset MAN" as he called it, as described here:

https://probesoftware.com/smf/index.php?topic=987.msg6447#msg6447

"Crazy as a fox" as they say!  The reason he requested this because he found that many of his standards weren't as pure as he thought they were. I thought it was a good idea for another reason: sometimes I've wanted to utilize the MAN method for oxygen analysis, and it's difficult to find standards that don't contain even trace oxygen (since we live in an ocean of oxygen)!  Whatever.

It boils down to this: almost without exception, the lowest intensity one can measure (by definition!) is the background.  Yes, there are possible sample and/or detector absorption edges and "holes" in the background continuum due to secondary Bragg diffraction (e.g, the hole in the continuum seen in FeS2 near the Au Ma position and in some PET crystals at the Ti Ka position, though there is still some debate about this), but these are fairly rare. So in general, any standards that fall above the general trend of the MAN calibration curve are either from contamination (from the element being present), or an interference from another analytical peak.

The general strategy at the user level is to simply remove those (higher intensity) offending standards from fit of the MAN curve. Now because you are conducting a bit of a research project here with your high Z materials, you are interested in exactly what is causing these outliers in the MAN calibration curve.  And that is great and you should pursue this line of inquiry because it is interesting and helpful for greater understanding of the details.

As to particular difficulties with high Z matrices, the main difficulty is due to the fact that the P/B ratios are worse for high Z matrices since from Kramers Law we know that we produce more continuum in higher Z materials. Second, when analyzing high Z emission lines, we are generally restricted to L or even M emissions and these are also typically lower P/B than K emissions. So combined this means that the calibration of the MAN curve is even more critical for high accuracy work in high Z materials, especially at low concentrations.

That said, there are advantages to using the MAN method even in complex high Z materials, as has been pointed out (no off-peak interferences and no interpolation). But I think other approaches such as the MPB (multi-point background) and even "shared" bgds can be useful for such matrices. I believe Karsten Goeman and Julien Allaz have published these methods and also have examples of these alternative off-peak methods posted elsewhere on the forum.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2019, 09:45:15 PM by Probeman »
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Re: Questions about MAN background use
« Reply #95 on: February 10, 2021, 12:26:08 PM »
Just wanted to point out that the MAN fit calculations in the Assign MAN Fits dialog in Probe for EPMA can be modified to utilize the more physically accurate electron fraction or Z fraction averaging method. Of course, this only pertains to average Z calculations for compounds.

That is to say, when compared to the traditional mass fraction based methods for calculating average Z. The mass fraction averaging method includes the mass of the neutrons, which has little to no effect on continuum (or backscatter) production, and therefore adds arbitrary errors to average Z calculations. See attached abstract from 2019 below (login to see attachments).

Here is an example for the Ca Ka emitter which is a fairly moderate energy x-ray using the traditional mass fraction average Z method:



And here is the same data, utilizing the electron or Z fraction method, specifically Z^0.7 electron fraction averaging:



Why the 0.7 exponent? It's because that is necessary to account for the screening of nuclear charge by the inner orbital electrons in higher Z atoms.

In fact this is why we see the backscatter vs. Z trend start to "curve over" around atomic number 30:

« Last Edit: February 10, 2021, 01:01:16 PM by Probeman »
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JonF

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Re: Questions about MAN background use
« Reply #96 on: May 07, 2021, 08:59:43 AM »
Hi all,
I’ve found myself in a predicament with MAN background and interference corrections, and I’m hoping someone can point out the glaring error of my ways.

I was measuring Co in Fe-Ni meteorites on our Cameca by both off peak quant points and MAN-corrected quant maps and have come across a disparity with the results for the Co to the tune of around 2000ppm.

As the Cameca is currently busy doing other things, I decided to test this out using our JEOL to see if I could replicate and simplify the problem using just the pure Fe and Co standards.

I measured Co Ka and Fe Ka on Fe metal and Co metal using off peak backgrounds. The Fe region is pretty clear and I can use a linear fit between the two background measurements, but the Fe Kb interferes with the Co Ka and the -ve side background ends up moving further up the Fe Kb shoulder.  I could have used a -ve background on the low side of the Fe Kb, but that sits on the other side of the Fe K absorption edge:




Zooming in on the background positions for the Co Ka, the exponential fit still over-estimates the background intensity underneath the Co Ka (as seen with a wavelength scan over the Co Ka in the Fe metal standard):




This results in reporting ~250ppm negative values of Co in Fe metal:




As I’m trying to figure out a solution for data that I have previously measured on the Cameca, I thought to switch everything over to MAN background subtraction.
MAN curves look ok:




But now the same data as above, that was reading ~-250ppm, now reads +900ppm.




And adding Fe in to the MAN fit highlights that I’ve either (i) got Co in my Fe standard, or (ii) there is an Fe interference on the Co Ka.




I don’t think there is 900ppm Co in my Fe metal standard, and looking at the user’s data, I have acquired MAN calibrations on fayalite, pyrite and hematite alongside Fe metal and all show elevated Co content proportional to the Fe content of the phase. 

Looking back at the wavelength scan of Co Ka in the Fe metal standard, I can see that there are two components to be subtracted from the Co Ka intensity: (i) the Bremsstrahlung background (roughly drawn on in maroon, and across the Fe K absorption edge) and (ii) the Fe Kb shoulder:




At this point, you think “that’s easy, just add the Fe as an interference correction on the Co measurement!”.
Annoyingly, this isn’t working:

The Fe metal results with Fe interference correction on Co:






And without Fe interference correction on Co:




“Use Assigned Interference Corrections on Standards and Unknowns” is enabled globally:




And I should add that I have tried both with and without "Use Interpolated Off Peaks for Man Fit".

Fe and Co were both collected on all standards on both the Cameca and JEOL runs, and neither are working.
The JEOL reports 1000ppm Co in the Fe standard when looking at the standards (as opposed to when measuring the Fe standard as an unknown) and the Fe standard is in the standard database as being pure Fe.
 
To summarise:
•   Off-peak measurements are under reporting Co by ~250ppm
•   MAN background subtracted measurements are over reporting Co by ~900ppm
•   I can’t get the interference correction working for MAN-background subtraction of elements acquired with off peak backgrounds for data acquired on both our Cameca and JEOL instruments, even using the most up to date Probe for EPMA.


I really want to figure out where it (or more likely, me) is going wrong with the MAN-subtracted interference corrections!
Anyone have any thoughts?
« Last Edit: May 07, 2021, 09:02:42 AM by JonF »

Probeman

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Re: Questions about MAN background use
« Reply #97 on: May 07, 2021, 09:37:09 AM »
Hi Jon,
I just quickly read through your post and think I understand what is going on. Specifically, the interference corrections are *not* applied to the MAN fit curves (it is possible to do in principle of course, but we have not implemented it).

What you want to do is remove all standards containing Fe from your Co ka MAN curves (use <ctrl> click to deselect them and click the Update MAN Fit button) because, yes, Fe Kb does interfere with Co Ka.

The other thing to keep in mind is that the *accuracy* MAN bgd correction is limited to around 100 to 200 PPM in the silicate-oxide z-bar range (10 to 20 or so), and is slightly worse for high average atomic number materials.  So depending on your accuracy needs, this may be where the blank correction needs to be applied to improve accuracy further. See:

https://probesoftware.com/smf/index.php?topic=307.0

and

https://probesoftware.com/smf/index.php?topic=29.0

for more details.   Or did I miss something?
« Last Edit: May 07, 2021, 09:39:27 AM by Probeman »
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JonF

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Re: Questions about MAN background use
« Reply #98 on: May 07, 2021, 09:46:52 AM »
Hi John,

I think the issue is that the interference correction isn't being applied to the MAN background subtracted measurements (that were acquired with off peak background measurements).

The MAN curves look good to me, and I've removed all the Fe-bearing phases from the Co Ka MAN fit.

I wish I did have a decent blank calibration (or even a decent FeNi primary or reference) standard! My worry with the real world samples though is that I'd need a dozen FeNi blank calibration samples to account for the "blank" X-ray intensity to change notably as the Fe content varies (as its on the Fe Kb shoulder for Co Ka).


Probeman

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Re: Questions about MAN background use
« Reply #99 on: May 07, 2021, 10:12:23 AM »
Hi Jon,
You can see the magnitude of the interference correction for each element, in the log window output. Look for the line labeled INT%.

Note that depending on the situation you don't necessarily require a perfect matrix match for the blank correction. However, you should not attempt to correct an interference correction using the blank correction if you are already applying an interference correction, or you will get a double correction (the software should warn you about this I think).

Feel free to send me your MDB file and I can take a look.
john
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Re: Questions about MAN background use
« Reply #100 on: May 07, 2021, 10:15:25 AM »
Here's an example I found of a Fe Kb on Co interference correction on pure Fe:

Un    3 Iron metal, Results in Elemental Weight Percents
 
ELEM:       Fe      Ni      Co      Mo
BGDS:      LIN     LIN     LIN     LIN
TIME:   160.00  160.00  200.00  210.00
BEAM:    49.87   49.87   49.87   49.87

ELEM:       Fe      Ni      Co      Mo   SUM 
   126 100.109   -.017    .000    .000 100.093
   127  99.927   -.021    .000   -.001  99.905
   128 100.363   -.030   -.003   -.001 100.330
   129 100.134   -.009    .001   -.004 100.122
   130 100.130   -.023    .001    .004 100.113

AVER:  100.133   -.020    .000    .000 100.113
SDEV:     .155    .008    .001    .003    .151
SERR:     .069    .003    .001    .001
%RSD:      .15  -38.89-2445.43-1900.01
STDS:      526     528     527     651

STKF:   1.0000  1.0000   .9978   .1305
STCT:   454.61  475.74 1669.26   51.00

UNKF:   1.0013  -.0002   .0000   .0000
UNCT:   455.21    -.09     .00     .00
UNBG:     1.24    1.42    3.82     .50

ZCOR:   1.0000  1.1015  1.0174  1.2544
KRAW:   1.0013  -.0002   .0000   .0000
PKBG:   367.64     .94    1.00    1.00
INT%:     ----    ---- -100.05    ----

And here is a NIST NiFe alloy that actually does contain 220 PPM of Co:

Un    7 NiFe NBS alloy, Results in Elemental Weight Percents

SPEC:       Mn      Si      Cr      Cu
TYPE:     SPEC    SPEC    SPEC    SPEC

AVER:     .300    .320    .060    .038
SDEV:     .000    .000    .000    .000
 
ELEM:       Fe      Ni      Co      Mo
BGDS:      LIN     LIN     LIN     LIN
TIME:   160.00  160.00  200.00  210.00
BEAM:    49.89   49.89   49.89   49.89

ELEM:       Fe      Ni      Co      Mo   SUM 
   146  51.728  47.016    .020    .012  99.493
   147  51.605  47.176    .020    .014  99.533
   148  51.701  47.263    .019    .006  99.707
   149  51.536  47.223    .021    .006  99.503
   150  51.721  47.090    .015    .007  99.551

AVER:   51.658  47.154    .019    .009  99.557
SDEV:     .084    .100    .002    .004    .087
SERR:     .038    .045    .001    .002
%RSD:      .16     .21   12.19   39.05
STDS:      526     528     527     651

STKF:   1.0000  1.0000   .9978   .1305
STCT:   455.29  476.37 1668.43   57.20

UNKF:    .5553   .4482   .0002   .0001
UNCT:   252.81  213.48     .31     .03
UNBG:     1.12    1.54    4.12     .50

ZCOR:    .9303  1.0522  1.0295  1.3263
KRAW:    .5553   .4482   .0002   .0005
PKBG:   227.59  139.90    1.07    1.06
INT%:     ----    ----  -80.46    ----
The only stupid question is the one not asked!

Probeman

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Re: Questions about MAN background use
« Reply #101 on: May 07, 2021, 10:21:10 AM »
I finally found an example of using interferences with MAN backgrounds (works with both off-peak and MAN) and found this of the NIST mineral glass:

Un    3 NBS K-412 mineral glass, Results in Elemental Weight Percents

SPEC:       Na      Al      Ca      Ti      Fe       O       B      Sr      Ba
TYPE:     SPEC    SPEC    SPEC    SPEC    SPEC    CALC    SPEC    SPEC    SPEC

AVER:     .043   4.906  10.899    .000   7.742  43.008    .000    .000    .000
SDEV:     .000    .000    .000    .000    .000    .048    .000    .000    .000
 
ELEM:       Mg       F       F      Si       P       K      Mn
BGDS:      MAN     MAN     MAN     MAN     MAN     MAN     MAN
TIME:   240.00  240.00  240.00   40.00   90.00   60.00  240.00
BEAM:    49.77   49.77   49.77   49.77   49.77   49.77   49.77

ELEM:       Mg       F       F      Si       P       K      Mn   SUM 
XRAY:     (ka)    (ka)    (ka)    (ka)    (ka)    (ka)    (ka)
    91  11.610    .001    .014  20.723    .003    .005    .059  99.031
    92  11.628   -.007    .020  20.727    .004    .003    .056  99.062
    93  11.648   -.017    .009  20.681    .006    .002    .062  98.985
    94  11.622   -.010    .008  20.652    .004    .000    .059  98.876
    95  11.619   -.018    .007  20.759    .003    .003    .058  99.092
    96  11.623    .010    .001  20.652    .006    .004    .059  98.898

AVER:   11.625   -.007    .010  20.699    .004    .003    .059  98.991
SDEV:     .013    .011    .007    .044    .001    .002    .002    .088
SERR:     .005    .004    .003    .018    .000    .001    .001
%RSD:      .11 -154.03   68.50     .21   26.55   68.39    3.08
STDS:       12     831     831      14     285     374      25

STKF:    .4736   .1544   .1544   .4101   .1600   .1132   .7341
STCT:   724.20   50.52  380.32  268.26  122.73  222.19  119.00

UNKF:    .0774   .0000   .0000   .1581   .0000   .0000   .0005
UNCT:   118.28    -.01     .06  103.40     .02     .05     .08
UNBG:      .56     .15    4.13     .19     .12     .99     .17

ZCOR:   1.5029  3.9668  3.9668  1.3094  1.3980  1.0939  1.2044
KRAW:    .1633  -.0001   .0002   .3855   .0002   .0002   .0007
PKBG:   212.57     .96    1.01  547.83    1.19    1.05    1.46
INT%:     ----   -2.47  -17.60    ----    ----    ----    ----

TDI%:     .099   -.627    .521    .000    .000    .020   -.513
DEV%:       .0      .0      .7      .0      .0    84.1      .0
TDIF:  LOG-LIN LOG-LIN LOG-LIN    ----    ---- LOG-LIN LOG-LIN
TDIT:   257.00  257.50  258.67     .00     .00   78.67  259.33
TDII:     119.    .143    4.20    ----    ----    1.04    .253
TDIL:     4.78   -1.95    1.43    ----    ----   .0423   -1.37

The first fluorine channel is using LTAP, and the second fluorine channel is using a PC1 crystal. Note that the interference correction is larger with the PC1 LDE type Bragg crystal as expected.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2021, 10:23:25 AM by Probeman »
The only stupid question is the one not asked!

JonF

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Re: Questions about MAN background use
« Reply #102 on: May 07, 2021, 10:33:43 AM »
Hi John,

  Thanks for looking at this for me. I've been scratching my head about this for the last two days and I can't figure out where I've messed up!
I've not had a problem with either MAN or interference corrections before, so I'm lost as to where I've gone wrong. And then doubly confused that I've managed to do it again on a completely new setup on a different instrument!

 Having checked that "Use Assigned Interference Corrections on Standards and Unknowns" is enabled in the Analysis options menu, I recalculate the Fe metal "unknown" and get the following:

Un    2 std6012_Fe_metal_test_01
TakeOff = 40.0  KiloVolt = 15.0  Beam Current = 10.0  Beam Size =    0
(Magnification (analytical) =  40000),        Beam Mode = Analog  Spot
(Magnification (default) =   100000, Magnification (imaging) = 100000)
Aperture Number: 2
Image Shift (X,Y):                                         .00,    .00
Number of Data Lines:  12             Number of 'Good' Data Lines:  12
First/Last Date-Time: 05/06/2021 07:27:49 PM to 05/06/2021 07:49:53 PM
WARNING- Using MAN Background Instead of Off-Peak Background Correction

Average Total Oxygen:         .000     Average Total Weight%:   99.928
Average Calculated Oxygen:    .000     Average Atomic Number:   26.001
Average Excess Oxygen:        .000     Average Atomic Weight:   55.850
Average ZAF Iteration:        2.00     Average Quant Iterate:     3.00

Un    2 std6012_Fe_metal_test_01, Results in Elemental Weight Percents
 
ELEM:       Fe      Co
BGDS:      MAN     MAN
TIME:    20.00   20.00
BEAM:    10.00   10.00

ELEM:       Fe      Co   SUM 
    51  99.817    .099  99.916
    52  99.816    .100  99.916
    53  99.645    .084  99.729
    54 100.247    .097 100.344
    55  99.404    .103  99.507
    56 100.016    .097 100.113
    57  99.772    .087  99.859
    58  99.843    .105  99.947
    59  99.476    .104  99.580
    60  99.609    .099  99.708
    61 100.267    .115 100.382
    62 100.056    .082 100.137

AVER:   99.831    .098  99.928
SDEV:     .277    .009    .278
SERR:     .080    .003
%RSD:      .28    9.62
STDS:     6012    6013

STKF:   1.0000  1.0000
STCT:   817.76  878.02

UNKF:    .9983   .0010
UNCT:   816.43     .84
UNBG:     1.83    2.43

ZCOR:   1.0000  1.0209
KRAW:    .9984   .0010
PKBG:   446.56    1.35
INT%:     ----    ----

I see the INT% is recorded as ---- despite the interference correction being selected?

I'll email over the mdb file to see what you think.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2021, 10:51:44 AM by John Donovan »

John Donovan

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Re: Questions about MAN background use
« Reply #103 on: May 07, 2021, 10:52:54 AM »
Hi Jon,
Be sure to use the "Tt" button for text output so the columns line up!

This is a silly question but did you actually assign the Fe on Co interference in the Standard Assignments dialog?
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Probeman

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Re: Questions about MAN background use
« Reply #104 on: May 07, 2021, 10:56:00 AM »
This is a silly question but did you actually assign the Fe on Co interference in the Standard Assignments dialog?

Just looked at your MDB file and yeah, you didn't actually assign any spectral interferences!    :o

I mean the software is good, but it can't read your mind!   :P
The only stupid question is the one not asked!